Curse

TadaceAce · Jun 03, 2006, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Were gonna look at damage based on 30 second intervals, about the equivalent of a very short fight in PvE.

Warrior
16 axe 10 str
Atk Spd: 1.33
Attacks in 30 seconds: 22.5564 (decimals for accuracy.)
Average damage per hit: (32.16+6.89)/2=19.525
Chance to critial hit = 20%, so 4.51128 attacks crit.
(critical hits are max damage of weapon times either route 2 or 2, irrelevant I'll use the same math for both warrior and assassin calculations.)
Against 60 armor, 10 str reduces 6 armor, making a 7.5% damage bonus.

Raw damage=((22.5564-4.51128)(19.525)+(4.51128)(28x2))(1.075)=(352.33+2 52.63168)(1.075) = 650.333806 damage
With 33% speed increase = 975.5 damage

Assassin
16 dagger 10 crit strikes
Atk Spd: 1.25, including double strikes, 0.95.
Attackins in 30 seconds: 31.5789
Average damage per hit: (19.53+8.04)/2=13.785
Chance to critical hit = (20+10)% so 9.47367 attacks crit.

Raw damage=(31.5789-9.47367)(13.785)+(9.47367)(17x2) = 626.84 damage
With 33% speed increaase = 940.26

__________________________________________________ _______________

Here is where it gets vague, bonus due to attacks.

Warrior
Say an axe warrior with 7 adrenal attacks:
Cleave, Penetrating Chop, Penetrating Blow, Furious Axe, Lacerating Chop, Executioner Strike, Dismember

ALL THESE ADRENAL CALCULATIONS ARE WITHOUT TAKING ANY DAMAGE!
22.5564 attacks builds (22.5564x20=451.128) adrenal points, Average adrenal cost of these 7 skills is (44/7=6.2857) so adrenal points needed before a chain can begin is (6.2857x20=125.71) Each adrenal attack uses 20 adrenal points and then approximately 10 between adrenal skills so 30 adrenal points per attack. So one would have (((451.128-125.71)/30)=10.84726) adrenal attacks at an average damage of about 30 damage a peice. So damage from adrenal attacks in 30 seconds with no damage taken and starting from 0 adrenal points is approximately (30x10.84726=325.418)

Assassin
An Assassin with 4 combo attacks, jagged, wild, blossom, horns (all 5 energy to keep this even remotely practical) and then moebius to recharge them so we can just pretend they are being spammed. Combos can happen as quickly as jagged and wild recharge, so 4 seconds. This leads to (30/4=7.5 combos in 30 seconds. Each combo is about (24+21+(42+31)=118 damage. Overall damage from combos in 30 seconds is (118)(7.5)=885. HOWEVER, these combos take precedent over regular attacks, so 7.5 combos at 4 hits each the assassin loses 30 regular attacks, losing 30(626.84/31.5789)=595.517 raw damage.

Total damages:
Warrior
650.333806+325.418=975.75
Assassin
626.84+885-595.517=916.323

As you can see there is some major issues here.
1. Its impractical to say the assassin is going to spam their combos.
2. Warriors have more armor.
3. Warriors can use increased attack speed with their energy to further increase the gap of damage.
4. Assassins can't use increased attack speed cause their already in an energy funk spammin combos.
5. Warriors will take damage and further increase their adrenal gain and damage output.
6. Warriors often go into battle with some adrenaline from last battle, further increasing damage gap.
7. Damage reduction on warriors and like turtle shell greatly reduce assassin raw damage much more than warrior damage. Especially since warriors strength will cause a greater boost against these tough targets.
8. Longer fights equates to a longer adrenal chain, warriors moves ahead further.
I don't know about you guys but I'd rather have a warrior than an assassin any day.

Ok so my suggestion, decrease combo damage, increase raw dagger damage, and increase chance to crit and double strike, the fact that the rogue of guild wars is undermined in damage by the tank is rediculous.

BahamutKaiser · Jun 03, 2006, 08:03 PM // 20:03

This is a nice analysis, and I greatly appreciate your effort on collecting these figures. I greatly dislike the function of Assassin as well, it seems your character goes in with less armor, and swings in full with several pittering attacks, you would think that because Assassin has less armor, and less damage over time, his skills would make a larger impact.

There are 2 very significant factors which arn't being accounted for here, and I realy think they should be stated before this continues. There are alot of situations in which assassins multiple attacks can trigger much more damage, specifically against a foe who has Barbs or Mark of Pain on him, those hexes can be expounded greatly be a barrage of smaller attacks. The second significant issue is the focus of damage delt on a target trying to survive. Real balanced equations are based on PvP effectiveness, and the most effective way to kill an enemy is to pour on alot of damage in a short period of time, giving enemy healers little time to conpensate and save the target, in this respect, you should also do a measurement of how much damage a Warrior and Assassin can do in 5 or 10 seconds, because a high spike of damage is a significant advantage, if a warrior can do twice as much damage over time, but for 5 seconds an assassin can do twice as much damage, there is a significant advantage to Assassin damage.

The other issue I would like to point out is Assassin builds which stress high critical and dual attacks over continous battle, With 13 points in Critical strikes, assassins not only get 13% more critical, but 3 energy every time they land one, which is a serious advantage over just damage, allowing them to incure energy for continous use of skills, then if you add the use of Critical Eyes, you get another 6% more critical, and 1 more energy every time you critical, that is 19% more critical, not including the chance to critical based on dagger attribute, and 4 energy back every time you do execute a critical hit. Furthermore, Criticals can happen during skills, so this can increase the damage you deal, and a chance to gain back energy for more skill use. Then you can include attacks like Critical Strike (the skill), which can force a critical attack and gain you 2 strikes of energy, up to 8 in all, and the use of skills like Way of perfection, which can net you healing every time you get a critical. Then for attack speed you can include the Critical Strikes skill (I don't know the name) which added another 20% chance to make a dual strike.

In my Assassin build, I put 11 points in critical strikes, and use a mask and minor rune to make that 13, and then I put 9 points in dagger, with a minor rune for 10. If I use Critical Eyes I have an additional 19 percent to critical, and gain back 3 energy every time I do, and with dual strike effect I get 6 hits for every 5 swings, roughly. In a DoT build, I can include the skill which adds another 20 percent chance to dual strike for a net of 7 strikes for every 5 swings. With a 40% chance to double strike, and around 35% chance to critical, I am getting alot of hits in, and critical damage plus energy for about every 3 hits. Builds like this in cooperation with Barbs or Mark of Pain can be devestating, and if you manage to get any attack speed increasing skills, your increasing your attack output by .4 with the dual strikes, that is major damage.

My real problem with Assassin is survivability. They have some tactical skills which help them escape, but even strenuos use of healing skills barely keep me alive. A warrior can do plenty of damage, but more importantly, he can survive plenty of damage, and taking damage wile making melee combat is a very significant difficulty. Because Assassin needs at least 2, often 3 and 4 skills to put together effective combo attacks, much of the skill bar is used for attacking, wile a Warrior can simply pump the same 1 or 2 attacks for effective damage, they often combo with conditions for condition stacking rather than Assassin combinations which cannot be aided by others, and condition based combos naturally have a stronger yeild. Furthermore, missing an attack in a combo disables you from continuing with other skills, making evasion and blindness much more determental to Assassins attack skills. Because Assassins attacks are so situational based and demanding, they self justify the increase of damage output Assassin combo skills deal, but with lower armor than Warrior, Assassin falls short defensively, and overall tactically. Assassin needs better survival skills, because of the lack of space the assassin has to equip them along with his combo lineup, and they need to be effective enough to compensate for his lack of armor, and lack of space to bring defensive and restoration skills.

I realy think Assassins shadowstepping skills should have alot lower recast times, Heart of Shadows and Death's charge take way to much recast to be useful healing skills, and being able to shadow step up to an enemy is what balances the lack of armor Assassin has compared to warrior, it allows him to accend on the target quickly, meaning he spends less time getting hit trying to reach the target.

If I could use heart of shadows every 5 seconds as a recastable protection spell, and use deaths charge every 15 seconds as a quick rebound, and possible healing technique, Assassin might be a better choice, but the real killer to Assassin isn't whether he can do damage, it is the addition of another allie which the healers in your team will have to sustain, instead of sparing their cures so the whole party can actually survive an encounter. As a melee character, he simply needs more survivability, otherwise I doubt we will see people bringing their Assassins into other chapters, because the last thing we need is another fly on our team.

Ristaron · Jun 03, 2006, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

This is a nice analysis, and I greatly appreciate your effort on collecting these figures. I greatly dislike the function of Assassin as well, it seems your character goes in with less armor, and swings in full with several pittering attacks, you would think that because Assassin has less armor, and less damage over time, his skills would make a larger impact.

There are 2 very significant factors which arn't being accounted for here, and I realy think they should be stated before this continues. There are alot of situations in which assassins multiple attacks can trigger much more damage, specifically against a foe who has Barbs or Mark of Pain on him, those hexes can be expounded greatly be a barrage of smaller attacks. The second significant issue is the focus of damage delt on a target trying to survive. Real balanced equations are based on PvP effectiveness, and the most effective way to kill an enemy is to pour on alot of damage in a short period of time, giving enemy healers little time to conpensate and save the target, in this respect, you should also do a measurement of how much damage a Warrior and Assassin can do in 5 or 10 seconds, because a high spike of damage is a significant advantage, if a warrior can do twice as much damage over time, but for 5 seconds an assassin can do twice as much damage, there is a significant advantage to Assassin damage.

The other issue I would like to point out is Assassin builds which stress high critical and dual attacks over continous battle, With 13 points in Critical strikes, assassins not only get 13% more critical, but 3 energy every time they land one, which is a serious advantage over just damage, allowing them to incure energy for continous use of skills, then if you add the use of Critical Eyes, you get another 6% more critical, and 1 more energy every time you critical, that is 19% more critical, not including the chance to critical based on dagger attribute, and 4 energy back every time you do execute a critical hit. Furthermore, Criticals can happen during skills, so this can increase the damage you deal, and a chance to gain back energy for more skill use. Then you can include attacks like Critical Strike (the skill), which can force a critical attack and gain you 2 strikes of energy, up to 8 in all, and the use of skills like Way of perfection, which can net you healing every time you get a critical. Then for attack speed you can include the Critical Strikes skill (I don't know the name) which added another 20% chance to make a dual strike.

In my Assassin build, I put 11 points in critical strikes, and use a mask and minor rune to make that 13, and then I put 9 points in dagger, with a minor rune for 10. If I use Critical Eyes I have an additional 19 percent to critical, and gain back 3 energy every time I do, and with dual strike effect I get 6 hits for every 5 swings, roughly. In a DoT build, I can include the skill which adds another 20 percent chance to dual strike for a net of 7 strikes for every 5 swings. With a 40% chance to double strike, and around 35% chance to critical, I am getting alot of hits in, and critical damage plus energy for about every 3 hits. Builds like this in cooperation with Barbs or Mark of Pain can be devestating, and if you manage to get any attack speed increasing skills, your increasing your attack output by .4 with the dual strikes, that is major damage.

My real problem with Assassin is survivability. They have some tactical skills which help them escape, but even strenuos use of healing skills barely keep me alive. A warrior can do plenty of damage, but more importantly, he can survive plenty of damage, and taking damage wile making melee combat is a very significant difficulty. Because Assassin needs at least 2, often 3 and 4 skills to put together effective combo attacks, much of the skill bar is used for attacking, wile a Warrior can simply pump the same 1 or 2 attacks for effective damage, they often combo with conditions for condition stacking rather than Assassin combinations which cannot be aided by others, and condition based combos naturally have a stronger yeild. Furthermore, missing an attack in a combo disables you from continuing with other skills, making evasion and blindness much more determental to Assassins attack skills. Because Assassins attacks are so situational based and demanding, they self justify the increase of damage output Assassin combo skills deal, but with lower armor than Warrior, Assassin falls short defensively, and overall tactically. Assassin needs better survival skills, because of the lack of space the assassin has to equip them along with his combo lineup, and they need to be effective enough to compensate for his lack of armor, and lack of space to bring defensive and restoration skills.

I realy think Assassins shadowstepping skills should have alot lower recast times, Heart of Shadows and Death's charge take way to much recast to be useful healing skills, and being able to shadow step up to an enemy is what balances the lack of armor Assassin has compared to warrior, it allows him to accend on the target quickly, meaning he spends less time getting hit trying to reach the target.

If I could use heart of shadows every 5 seconds as a recastable protection spell, and use deaths charge every 15 seconds as a quick rebound, and possible healing technique, Assassin might be a better choice, but the real killer to Assassin isn't whether he can do damage, it is the addition of another allie which the healers in your team will have to sustain, instead of sparing their cures so the whole party can actually survive an encounter. As a melee character, he simply needs more survivability, otherwise I doubt we will see people bringing their Assassins into other chapters, because the last thing we need is another fly on our team.

Please summarize, my brain can't handle THAT.

BahamutKaiser · Jun 03, 2006, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Multiple attacks can expound the damage delt by hexes like Barbs and Mark of Pain.

Stacked damage can be more effective then dealing alot of damage over time, because it has a higher potential to kill an enemy before healers can save them.

Assassins can use higher points in Critical Strikes and the skill Critical Eyes to gain 19% more critical, which also has a chance of dealing added damage during a skill, and because Critical Strikes returns up to 3 energy, and 1 more with Critical Eyes, it doesn't compete with Strength simply on damage, it also returns energy for more skill use.

And I think the real problem with Assassin is the lack of survivability, not lack of damage, we don't need another liability on the field, which is why Warrior is truely better than Assassin, Assassin needs an improvement in his healing skill lineup to help him survive in combat.

That's about as summarized as it will get, if you need a little more info, then return to my original statement for more developed explanations.

Verlas Ho'Esta · Jun 03, 2006, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Seem to be forgetting one thing. Conditions. I built my assassin to lay as many conditions as I can on the target at once, then back up and wait for the degen to finish it off. Blind the warriors/archers so they can't attack, daze the casters, bleed/poison everything, then stand back and laugh. Even if I do no damage whatsoever, the conditions do more than enough, and bypass armor, making raw damage numbers obsolete. I'm not saying it's better than a warrior (the ability to soak damage like a sponge is handy), but it is not as helpless as your calculations suggest.

Rogmar · Jun 03, 2006, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Condition Removal isn't extinct you know...

TadaceAce · Jun 03, 2006, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Assassins can't do many conditions contrary to popular belief, their only real conditions are bleed, poison, and daze/blind. Bleed is easy, jagged strike, poison is more difficult, entangling asp of falling spider, asp has long recharge and spider requires a knocked down fow, and daze/blind comes from an elite with a 25 second recharge. Given its an elite it can't be recharged with moebius or promise making that worth crap. Compare this to a ranger and its a joke. Also raw damage is based on no skills, conditions are only by skills. I granted 24 damage for jagged strike giving that 4 seconds of the 8 second duration worth of bleeding, depending if the enemie dies or it gets removed. Verlas your post just bothers me, blind all the warriors and daze all the casters? how about blind one person or daze one person then sit there for 25 seconds while temple strike recharges. And even if you bleed and poison him and back off thats a whopping 7 degen, over 30 seconds you dish out 420 damage... thats prolly on par with like a wammo.

Bahamut you talk of higher critical strikes. Its irrelevant to these calculations, the higher your critical strikes, the lower your dagger mastery and other things, making it more a balancing act. I don't know for sure which way makes for better dps but I'm sure they are about the same. Barbs, Mark of Pain, and Orders are something that the assassin can utilize the most, but how many groups have those? I mean sometimes yeah you do find groups with these, but, a warrior can still utilize it, not as much as an assassin, but I'd still rather have the warrior. You also have to keep in mind all my calculations are with assassins flat out spamming combos with no breaks, as soon as jagged and wild recharge its another combo. More critical strikes would give more energy to spam these combos but in my calculations that would lower its total damage from lower dagger mastery.

Isn't it ironic a ranger, who can attack from farther away than spellcasters has the second most armor?

TadaceAce · Jun 03, 2006, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Heres a new number for you to crunch. Taking in number 1 through 8 conditions. Given the war goes in with full adrenaline, has a 33% speed increase, and is taking a whole lotta damage, we got a whole new number.

((650.333806)(1.5))+(30/(1.33x.66))(30))=975.5(raw)+1025.29(adrenal)=2000. 79 total damage.

but ok, even if they start from 0 adrenaline and not taking any damage, the 33% speed increase along raises their damage to

((650.333806)(1.5))+(((34.1763x20)-125.71)/30)(30)=975.5+557.816=1533.316709 total damage

Rediculous.... this is a little unrealistic cause this is saying your taking enough damage to charge all your adrenal attacks while your using the other ones, you started with every adrenal attack full, and you have 33% speed increase at all times.

But this just shows a warrior has a potential to do anywhere from 975 to 1990 damage in 30 seconds, meanwhile the assassin spamming all his combos and trying so hard pulls off a measely 916.

Funny I just noticed, if you look closely an assassin with 33% increase and not using any combos does more damage than one spamming combos.

BahamutKaiser · Jun 03, 2006, 10:44 PM // 22:44

I would have to say warrior has alot more efficiency putting down status effects, Warrior doesn't have poison, but he has alot better knockdown and weakness with Hammer attacks, and unlike Assassin skills of which some are increadably difficult to combo with, Warrior skills rarely require anything more than inflicting a certain condition first to put on another condition, wile Assassin requires chains of lead and off hand attacks to execute many skills, and producing Knockdown for falling spider with daggers is alot harder then producing knockdown for a Warrior following up with belly smash for blind, you see that tacking Warrior combinations are more readily executable.

There are alot of akward factors that go into Assassins effectiveness, so trying to make broad comparisons based on the use of unmentioned skills doesn't neccessarily prove Assassin is less effective. I use Palm Strike and Phoenix Strike with my Assassin, so there is no need to throw in a lead attack, and Palm Strike doesn't miss or account for armor, doing 75 damage at 13 points in Critical strikes, and putting the enemy wide open for a Dual Attack, then I use Phoenix Strike and in less than 5 seconds my Dual attack, Critical Strike, can be used again, and since I use Way of perfection and Critical Eyes, I get 27 x 2 every time I use Critical Strike, an 8 energy, making it easy to spam in with those skills again. Also, there is a Black Lotus Strike or something that allows you to start an off hand attack if the enemy is hexed, that is another quick path to a Dual Strike as well.

In my experience in combat, I have easily matched and exceeded Warrior Attackers in my party, often dispatching enemies on my own as fast as 3 other players focusing on another. That may be due to better skill selection and use, but I realy don't have a problem with my Assassins damage.

What I realy want to point out is the lack of defensive power they have, Assassins are less armored, and use up alot of skills just to deal damage, they need better defensive options. As it is, with Way of Perfection, Shadow Refuge, Watch Yourself, and sometimes I also bring Heart of Shadows, I am certain to be the first player to hit the floor, there isn't even a point in me bringing a rez, I use Watch Yourself just to keep myself and teammates alive a second longer. It is realy unfortunate that Warrior doesn't have a Tactics skill which grants a dose of healing costing adrenaline, my Assassin pumps in adrenaline quickly, but doesn't use it in his own skills, sadly, but if I had a tactics skill which heals at the cost of adrenaline I could certainly put it to use. As it stands, I'm about to try out A/Mo and see how much healing Vigorous spirit will net me with my fast attacks, they just pumped the healing on that skill so it may be very handy.

yc525 · Jun 03, 2006, 10:50 PM // 22:50

it is an unfair comparison because assassins also have more non elite knockdowns(iron pal, entangling asp, horns of the ox), as well as deep wound (twisting fangs), also, an assassin has hexes and enchantments it could use to better buff its effet, warriors do not have that...

assassin's true nature is its ability to get in, kill, and get out, warrior does not have teleportation skills, or hexes such as shadow shroud, which can stop any prot monk...

warriors do not have unconditional damage except from things like shove, while assassins have plenty of skills/spells that can be used for unconditional damage (palm strike, iron palm, etc.)

also, assassin have skills such as caltrops that can cripple an entire fleeing team, when warriors have to get up close and cripple...

do not compare warriors and assassins just upright using DPS, of course warriors will do more dps, they do the most in the frikin game, your entire post is flawed

Guardian of the Light · Jun 03, 2006, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by yc525

it is an unfair comparison because assassins also have more non elite knockdowns(iron pal, entangling asp, horns of the ox), as well as deep wound (twisting fangs), also, an assassin has hexes and enchantments it could use to better buff its effet, warriors do not have that...

assassin's true nature is its ability to get in, kill, and get out, warrior does not have teleportation skills, or hexes such as shadow shroud, which can stop any prot monk...

warriors do not have unconditional damage except from things like shove, while assassins have plenty of skills/spells that can be used for unconditional damage (palm strike, iron palm, etc.)

also, assassin have skills such as caltrops that can cripple an entire fleeing team, when warriors have to get up close and cripple...

do not compare warriors and assassins just upright using DPS, of course warriors will do more dps, they do the most in the frikin game, your entire post is flawed

I agree

Also don't forget good old temple strike and its dazed

TadaceAce · Jun 03, 2006, 11:14 PM // 23:14

this whole post was mostly set in the sight of pve, and really in pve knockdown isn't worth it, rarely is there anything using guardian, aegis, or weapon of warding, and if there is they are programmed poorly and put it on the tank instead of themselves while they die.

And everybody keeps talking about assassin spike, how about warrior spike running off 5 straight adrenal attacks, that'll put an assassins spike to shame by two fold. Also temple strike is incredibly overated, only really works in 4v4 versus nubs, in 8v8 or 12v12 there are other monks and it gets mended real quick.
Warriors have non elite knockdowns too, its called hammer bash and heavy blow, not to mention they can use those more than the assassins can use theirs, especially if they have increased attack speed. They have deep wound, dismember/eviscerate/that hammer one/gash whats your point?

Oh and bahamut I did mention the 5 skills I was using in my combo calculations if you read closely...

Undivine · Jun 04, 2006, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

As it stands, I'm about to try out A/Mo and see how much healing Vigorous spirit will net me with my fast attacks, they just pumped the healing on that skill so it may be very handy.

I've heard Live Vicariously works very well too. Imagine stacking that with Vigorous Spirit.

Personally, I'm a bit curious what an assassin could manage with Illusionary Weapon though.

kazz · Jun 04, 2006, 02:56 AM // 02:56

i think the biggest advantage an assn has over warrior is loads more energy. you have 4 regen instead of 2, and gain additional energy from critical hits.

TadaceAce · Jun 04, 2006, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazz

i think the biggest advantage an assn has over warrior is loads more energy. you have 4 regen instead of 2, and gain additional energy from critical hits.

Yeah because they need it to attack... warriors don't

And IW as Me/A or A/Me is no more damage than Me/W or W/Me you just don't need to use flurry

KvanCetre · Jun 04, 2006, 03:08 AM // 03:08

I use assassin as a caster killer. Get in, daze em, get their health pretty low, get out before I die :-p

BahamutKaiser · Jun 04, 2006, 05:35 AM // 05:35

ppl act like Assassin has some serious caster killing advantage over Warrior, when a Warrior can use hammer attacks to daze with nearly the same difficulty, and can knockdown enemies repeatatively, I find that comparison rather misguided.

And sorry for overlooking your skill selection, but just by that, I would have to say the warrior is using his whole skill bar for attack skills, wile the Assassin is dealing his damage with 4. The amount of skills neccessary to attack and deal damage are very relavent, because those other skills can be other damage improving or survival skills. For raw hit damage I doubt Warrior needs all of those, and to draw a closer comparison to dagger mastery, I would gauge Warriors attack ratio with hammer attacks instead of sword or axe, because that automaticly adds either more defense or possibly more energy from whatever offhand item a warrior can carry with his weapon, in comparison to Assassin using both hands to wield daggers.

At this point I am going to have to say that trying to make an overall comparison as to which can deal more damage, whether it be raw or degen, and which one is more effective at dealing damage, vs dealing damage and hampering hexes is a little to complicated to sum up in just a few damage evaluations. Which brings me back to survivability, and Warrior is definetly better at it. Warrior does have more armor, and Assassin has more energy regen on his armor, as well as 5 more energy, but Warrior is gaining adrenaline during battle which powers his attack skills, wile Assassin has to poor out his energy, including what Critcal Strikes nets him, in order to use attack skills brings him down to or below what warrior has to use on healing skills he obtains from other classes. But the basic point is that the skills Assassin has to heal himself are not available enough to keep him alive, wile Warrior can stack major defense skills along with his already high defense to reduce damage taken to nearly nothing, then use healing skills to make him a tank. If Assassin can't use his shadow steping and healing skills often enough to compete with warrior for survivability, then wile basicly remain a melee version of elementist or mesmer, another weak target which has to be constantly maintained, Even a ranger has more effective healing skills, it takes him less skills to keep himself alive, and he is ranged so he doesn't cross as many hazards as a melee character does.

All I want to see is some lower recast times on some of the additional heals and shadow steps Assassin has, one hit wonders arn't enough to compete with Warrior. But on the same note, I really dislike many of the long recast times on Warrior stances, as before, one hit wonders really suck, expecially for defensive skills.

TadaceAce · Jun 04, 2006, 05:47 AM // 05:47

As far as the assassin only having 5 (yes 5 sorry I didn't mention moebius) thats what most assassins have, they have 4 + moebius or just 4. Most use jagged/wild strike and then have 2 dual attacks since no dual attack is that quick a recharge (although crit strikes does come close). At least they do in pve, pvp I dunno what since they shafted golden phoenix strike. The number of attacks is kinda irrelevant in the calculations since moebius recharges them and equates to maximum combos anyway.

TadaceAce · Jun 04, 2006, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Another thing I would like to see changed is assassin skill recharges, granted there are skills to recharge them like moebius and promise, but promise is no good in pvp and tough to use in pve, and moebius is an 8 second recharge in itself. Everybody, even every assassin enemy in the game uses jagged strike and wild strike because its the only practical way to use combos without have 7 spaces on your skillbar full of dagger attacks.

Ken Dei · Jun 04, 2006, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Ok, besides durability, or lack thereof. The biggest problem Assassins have is energy management. If you're going to run even a short spike combo, about 3skills it's going to cost you about 25 energy, your whole bar.

Now, assuming you run pure Assassin and have 12 DM and 13 Crits. You'll finish the combo fine even under a little e-denial. But that's only if you run in, i.e. your target sees you coming.

Most Assassins will want to prep a target first, as mentioned before we have hexes to apply. Unfortunately, most of these are expensive and not very "good" overall. Shadowsteping to attack is also expensive. Most of the time if you prep a target or step to them you're now at a deficit in energy. You'd probably start at about 15. That means, even running Zealous Daggers, you'd have to rely on lucky crits to finish the combo.

"So what's the big deal, you have a high crit-ratio"

The big deal occurs with the fact you're trying to spike. Even with high crits it'll take you a few hits to do so. The longer it takes to build the energy for the final move, the less effective the spike. In all but a half second of delay on that final blow, all your dmg will have been wasted if there's a good healer around.

Ok, let's assume you got lucky, killed your target. Guess what...you are most likely out of energy to escape with. That's bad.

Unless you pre-cast AoD before hand you are stuck getting out on your own devices.

Unfortunately, most of your standard defensive steps don't teleport you far enough away. Caltrops is a plus, but ultimately it usually won't save from much other then a bad 2v1 against melee.

You will usually still be in range or just a stone throws away from that high dmg Ele or heavy degen Mesmer. Crappy shadow steps don't do justice to a melee with 70 Armor.

Again Rangers have better Armor and Defensive skills. Their built in elemental defense and various anti-melee skills make them far superior to Assassins when it comes to self defense.

Also, please, do not ressurect the quickly tired "You're just not playing it right."

That's BS, I am playing it right. I keep my combo short and to the point, I keep my crits and DM high (the stats I presented earlier) and my Shadow Arts is 11, I think, around there. I do not tank, I pack AoD, and shadow refuge and two short range steps, along with caltrops.

I kill plenty of people and get out most of the time. But that's only on a good day and only because I have a few hundred hours practice with the Assassin.

What I'm saying is, yes the Assassin can be good, but it takes FAR more skill and effort then any other class, including Mesmers. (of which I have one also)

So unless you like ridiculous challenges to overcome, this class is a real no-go.

Things I would like to see: (Some, not all, just various possibly improvements)

-All defensive shadowsteps should teleport your to a random locating "In the Area" as opposed to "Nearby" which isn't very far at all when you're trying to get away.

-Shadowsteps should ignore the solidity of all objects but map boundries, no more of this pinned against a cliff or other players crap.

-Set the randomization procols in the coding to favor, but not demand, putting you in a better position instead of a worse one. In seems every time I use heart of shadow or viper's defense now while running away, I teleport backwards. I mean 8/10 times, this is not a fluke, something is wrong.

-Armor of 80, while Shadow Arts/Deadly Arts is 13+
-Armor 70, (+15 armor While Moving.)
-Armor 75, (while below 10 energy)
-Armor 70, (+1..3 health regen, while 3 or more hexes are on you)

For the above:
-Chest: +3 Regen
-Arms, Legs: +2 Regen
-Feet, Hands: +1 Regen

Let's assume you're in a very bad spot:

A mean heavy degen Mesmer is on you like the IRS. He's got you under conjure nightmare, conjure phantasm and life siphon. That's about 16 degen, capped at 10 pips of course. So 10 Degen. Assuming you're fully decked out in anti-hex armor, which you probably won't be.

You get +9 regen, you're still degening by 1 pip of health, which means any direct damage is still effecting you a good amount.

-More flexibility in combos, i.e. (this attack can follow a lead or offhand.) or (this attack can follow a lead attack or dual attack.), etc., etc.

-Temple strike at 25 recharge is worthless. I don't care how much dazed pissed casters off. They can go find a monk with condition removal. It's an Elite, it should be 10-15 seconds.

I think that about covers most of the possible improvements.